A third unique aspect of this is that it's the first of my interviews that I have done over the phone. So realizing that this is a very long interview, and that I have a lot of transcribing to do, I figured I would split up the interviews into two separate posts.
In the interviews we talk about all four of Leon's books, including her autobiography as well as a few other questions, both related and unrelated to her works. I'm absolutely ecstatic with being able to do the interview with Ms. Bing. I've been a huge fan of hers since I first read her indepth view of the world of The Bloods & The Crips "Do or Die", and then even more so when reading her other works.
Then as I read more about her, particularly in her autobiography "Swans & Pistols: Modeling, Motherhood and Making it in the Me Generation", it became apparent that she has lived an incredible life, and it made me want to talk with her even more.
So with all that said, please enjoy the following interview and I hope that you are able to take something from the lengthy talk that we had over the course of a couple days.
This first post will cover our discussions pertaining to her first two books, "Do or Die", her indepth look into the world of Los Angeles street gangs, and her second book "Smoked" which details the murders of three girls by their two friends in upscale Pasadena, California.
Enjoy.
p.s. for some reason in blogger it keeps changing the sizes of text throughout, making some seem larger or more bold than others. I have no idea why it does this. All the text is the same font/size, etc but for whatever reason it makes some larger and some smaller.
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SFCB: Your book “Do or Die” which was an inside look at the Los Angeles gangs The Bloods and The Crips, was an incredible read, and was dramatic, humorous and scary often at the same time. Talk about how you first came to write a book about Los Angeles gang members, which was not necessarily the world that you had grown up around.
LEON BING: I
grew up in a very different world, in Northern California, and went to
boarding school and then on to University and I didn't really have any
idea that the world of gangs existed, until years and years later. I
mean we all have seen movies like Blackboard Jungle, but still, that
wasn't a gang, that was just unruly kids.
Then I started seeing these little snippets opposite the weather map in the Metro section of the L.A. Times, and it was always this little squib that read two black youths shot dead in South Central L.A. And it always made me sad and a bit angry, because I knew if these were two white youths, shot dead in Beverly Hills, it would supercede every other headline.
But obviously, the black kids were just the ultimate in disposable. so I had just really begun to write, and I had no idea at all what I was doing, But I, through a friend, met a deputy probation officer, and I rode with him for one day for all his cases. And I just sat quietly and listened, and at the end of each interview, I asked if I could come back alone for an interview, and everyone said yes. So within a day or so I set off alone and it was like a fall of dominoes. One interview led to another and another and another.
Then I started seeing these little snippets opposite the weather map in the Metro section of the L.A. Times, and it was always this little squib that read two black youths shot dead in South Central L.A. And it always made me sad and a bit angry, because I knew if these were two white youths, shot dead in Beverly Hills, it would supercede every other headline.
But obviously, the black kids were just the ultimate in disposable. so I had just really begun to write, and I had no idea at all what I was doing, But I, through a friend, met a deputy probation officer, and I rode with him for one day for all his cases. And I just sat quietly and listened, and at the end of each interview, I asked if I could come back alone for an interview, and everyone said yes. So within a day or so I set off alone and it was like a fall of dominoes. One interview led to another and another and another.
And
word spread that I was okay, that I was kind of, walked like I talked, I
guess, and certainly I was no threat. And so that was it.
SFCB:
Yeah I had read an interview where you talked about how if they sensed
fear in you, or if they had thought you were afraid of them, that that
would have been a problem.
MORE AFTER THE BREAK
MORE AFTER THE BREAK
LEON BING: Yes, it would have been, and I didn't know it. Nobody had said
"don't act afraid" I just wasn't afraid. I mean these were American
teenagers, and I figured the worst they would have done was back talk.
But I didn't feel, growing up either, I wasn't a teacher, I was just
someone who wanted to know how these kids felt being unwanted in their
own country.
I
know I wasn't expecting that, and I think that was an added aspect to
it where it was like "wow, I would never have expected that someone like
Leon would go in there and have them open up to her so much."
LEON BING: Well, I don't know if it was just me that they would open up to, I
think they would have, most of these kids -- and I hate using "they",
it makes them sound like carpenter ants, you know, and each kid is
different of course. There are really smart kids and really dumb kids,
there are mean ones, there are great ones, you know it's just real life.
So it wasn't just me, I think because most these kids were
teenagers, no one ever really asks teenagers what their opinions are.
They're pretty much told to do their homework and keep out of the way.
No one really asks, "So what do you think about what's going on in
Washington?" you know? (laughs) I didn't ask those particular
questions, I didn't ask them about politics, but I did want to know how
they thought and felt, and particularly about being such an unwelcome
part of society. I mean the only time these kids are welcome are on the
front lines when there's a war. And the war with each other made me
nuts, because I used to very often say, 'oh what are you doing, you're
killing a kid just like yourself!" he'd say "No, He's my worst enemy",
and I'd say "no, no, no, he's not your worst enemy, believe me."
SFCB: Well you point that out, and that kind of goes to my next question, as
you’ve said, one of your initial thoughts was that you’d see newspaper
articles buried in the back of the paper about gang members killing each other,
and it struck you as outrageous, as if these were kids from Beverly Hills (or
Pasadena, as you wrote about in your second book Smoked), it would be on the front pages
And I think that
unfortunately that stretches across the media in not just gang violence. You had the case of Jessica Lynch, the
American soldier who was ambushed during the Iraq War in March of 2003 and was
injured and taken prisoner. When
Lynch,a blonde white woman, came home there was this wall to wall
coverage of her and she was singled out as this great story.
Meanwhile in that very same attack with Lynch, was Shoshana Johnson (A Black single mother) who was also injured and taken prisoner with Lynch, as
well as Lori Piestewa (A Hopi single mother from a poor background) who was killed in the attack, and neither of those two were given the attention that
Jessica was.
Then later I read in the last few weeks where there was a controversy because Shoshana actually got a smaller pension than Lynch did, and there was a lot of controversy over that, and the official storyline over that was that her injuries were not as debilitating as Lynch's, and I guess the pension was based on the long term recovery, or living with your injuries or something like that. So that was the official story, but still that comes off as kind of wrong.
LEON BING: It's very wrong, and the "official story" is always one where if you dig deep enough, it's very unusual.
SFCB: It's like Pat Tillman. That one was one where ...
LEON BING: Friendly fire, and that went on for a year at least.
SFCB: And the whole time they were building him up as... I mean he was already a hero, you know, you didn't have to embellish that. Yet they wanted to sort of put a positive spin on something that was getting a lot of negative reaction. Like to say "hey, look at this guy, HE'S the reason why we're doing this." But it's like, they didn't have to do that, it's just disheartening.
LEON BING: You know, there's just so much that goes on that just makes me want to scream. And of course the media -- of which, I guess I'm a part, although I try to hold myself apart and only write about those things that really get me going, and a lot gets me going. But I won't feast upon a story as though it were carrion, and I were a bird of prey or you know, a vulture. I just won't feast on an article like that story, it has to be one that I kind of devote all of my attention to.
And as tragic as Pat Tillman and those other stories are, they were -- I was not as aware of the Hopi Indian, I would have thought that they would have been all over that, but I think I was writing another book at the time, and when I write I just absorb myself in that subject, you know, and I watch the political news and that's it.
Then later I read in the last few weeks where there was a controversy because Shoshana actually got a smaller pension than Lynch did, and there was a lot of controversy over that, and the official storyline over that was that her injuries were not as debilitating as Lynch's, and I guess the pension was based on the long term recovery, or living with your injuries or something like that. So that was the official story, but still that comes off as kind of wrong.
LEON BING: It's very wrong, and the "official story" is always one where if you dig deep enough, it's very unusual.
SFCB: It's like Pat Tillman. That one was one where ...
LEON BING: Friendly fire, and that went on for a year at least.
SFCB: And the whole time they were building him up as... I mean he was already a hero, you know, you didn't have to embellish that. Yet they wanted to sort of put a positive spin on something that was getting a lot of negative reaction. Like to say "hey, look at this guy, HE'S the reason why we're doing this." But it's like, they didn't have to do that, it's just disheartening.
LEON BING: You know, there's just so much that goes on that just makes me want to scream. And of course the media -- of which, I guess I'm a part, although I try to hold myself apart and only write about those things that really get me going, and a lot gets me going. But I won't feast upon a story as though it were carrion, and I were a bird of prey or you know, a vulture. I just won't feast on an article like that story, it has to be one that I kind of devote all of my attention to.
And as tragic as Pat Tillman and those other stories are, they were -- I was not as aware of the Hopi Indian, I would have thought that they would have been all over that, but I think I was writing another book at the time, and when I write I just absorb myself in that subject, you know, and I watch the political news and that's it.
SFCB: And, you know, there are some people I know who I’ve shown your books
to, and the book “Smoked” about the white kids who had killed their girlfriends
gets a reaction of “oh wow, it's crazy!” and yet “Do or Die” gets a reaction of almost --
LEON BING: -- oh well, you know THEM...
SFCB: -- you know how THEY are.
LEON BING: Right, which is, you know, blatant racism.
SFCB: Well I don't know if it is a conscious thing, but we've seen that so much in society where it's almost become expected. It's like "Well....yeah, that's what they do, you know? I mean ... what do you want?" And I don't think that the people that I was talking to, I don't think that it was a conscious thing, it was a product of --
LEON BING: It's a knee-jerk reaction. There's no thought behind it, it's the same reaction when you go to the doctor and he taps your knee with the hammer. Your knee and your leg moves. It's just knee-jerk.
The killers in Smoked, those teenagers, those murders were so much more craven, then any gang killings. Gangs killed perceived enemies. I don't mean that as if it's right, but they kill those they perceive as their worst enemies. You know, I've so often said to somebody "You're killing a kid that's just like you, what is the matter with you? Stop it!" You know, because I was down there four or five times a week, for two years in the gang neighborhoods, and got to know people very well. And I talked completely openly with them, I didn't just ask the questions.
And the killers in Smoked did it so for the hell of it
SFCB: Thrill killings.
LEON BING: And so they were playing a game called Quarters, do you know that game?
SFCB: You bounce the quarters into the cup?
LEON BING: Yeah. They had been playing quarters, they were in the guest house, and one of the girls was the girlfriend of Dave Adkins, and then his friend Vinnie [Hebrock] who sort of traveled along with Dave. And Vinnie and another girl named Heather had apparently had an argument. There was a third kid who saw everything. So I got it all from him, and I got it all from Dave who called me every day before court from The Temple of Justice, where he was being housed. So I got the story from him, and the story from this kid Kyle in court, so I got the whole story.
And Dave had gone to get beer, and this girl had to stay behind because apparently she and Vinnie had been arguing. And the boys knew where the parent's shotgun was. And on the cover of the book that is the real shotgun, I took a picture of it after court. It was just there, and I asked permission and got a picture of it.
And they just went and got the gun and killed the girls, including the third girl who wasn't really in their crowd. She was passed out, and they just shot her in the head. And then the title came from, they were walking down the stairs, Vinnie said -- borrowing a gang phrase -- "We smoked them all, dude".
And then they went to a teacher's house, whom I got to know. And she gave them Swiss Miss hot chocolate, they were driving -- one of the girl's who's house they were at, her mother's Mercedes, her parent's were away, and they took the mother's car and drove up towards Canada where they were ultimately... they never got to Canada, they were arrested.
But as I say, it was a much more craven killing. These girls weren't their enemies. They were friends! And for me, it was much more entirely cold blooded. There was no passion behind it, there was simply an available weapon.
LEON BING: -- oh well, you know THEM...
SFCB: -- you know how THEY are.
LEON BING: Right, which is, you know, blatant racism.
SFCB: Well I don't know if it is a conscious thing, but we've seen that so much in society where it's almost become expected. It's like "Well....yeah, that's what they do, you know? I mean ... what do you want?" And I don't think that the people that I was talking to, I don't think that it was a conscious thing, it was a product of --
LEON BING: It's a knee-jerk reaction. There's no thought behind it, it's the same reaction when you go to the doctor and he taps your knee with the hammer. Your knee and your leg moves. It's just knee-jerk.
The killers in Smoked, those teenagers, those murders were so much more craven, then any gang killings. Gangs killed perceived enemies. I don't mean that as if it's right, but they kill those they perceive as their worst enemies. You know, I've so often said to somebody "You're killing a kid that's just like you, what is the matter with you? Stop it!" You know, because I was down there four or five times a week, for two years in the gang neighborhoods, and got to know people very well. And I talked completely openly with them, I didn't just ask the questions.
And the killers in Smoked did it so for the hell of it
SFCB: Thrill killings.
LEON BING: And so they were playing a game called Quarters, do you know that game?
SFCB: You bounce the quarters into the cup?
LEON BING: Yeah. They had been playing quarters, they were in the guest house, and one of the girls was the girlfriend of Dave Adkins, and then his friend Vinnie [Hebrock] who sort of traveled along with Dave. And Vinnie and another girl named Heather had apparently had an argument. There was a third kid who saw everything. So I got it all from him, and I got it all from Dave who called me every day before court from The Temple of Justice, where he was being housed. So I got the story from him, and the story from this kid Kyle in court, so I got the whole story.
And Dave had gone to get beer, and this girl had to stay behind because apparently she and Vinnie had been arguing. And the boys knew where the parent's shotgun was. And on the cover of the book that is the real shotgun, I took a picture of it after court. It was just there, and I asked permission and got a picture of it.
And they just went and got the gun and killed the girls, including the third girl who wasn't really in their crowd. She was passed out, and they just shot her in the head. And then the title came from, they were walking down the stairs, Vinnie said -- borrowing a gang phrase -- "We smoked them all, dude".
And then they went to a teacher's house, whom I got to know. And she gave them Swiss Miss hot chocolate, they were driving -- one of the girl's who's house they were at, her mother's Mercedes, her parent's were away, and they took the mother's car and drove up towards Canada where they were ultimately... they never got to Canada, they were arrested.
But as I say, it was a much more craven killing. These girls weren't their enemies. They were friends! And for me, it was much more entirely cold blooded. There was no passion behind it, there was simply an available weapon.
SFCB: In Chicago there has been an extreme amount of gun
violence and gang violence, most recently there was a local Chicago rapper Lil JoJo who had had a run in
with another rapper named Chief Keef, who incidentally had just gotten a
record deal with Interscope, and there was a bit of outrage about that
aspect of it. Of course Interscope's a label that had also had artists
like Snoop Dogg, and Tupac and Dr. Dre and other people who had in the
past glorified that kind of thing --
LEON BING: That kind of life?
SFCB: Yeah, that gang violence and stuff like that, and I kind of jokingly said on Twitter that it would have been more of a outrage if Interscope had NOT signed him. Soon after that became news that Lil Jo Jo had been killed, Chief Keef tweeted out mocking comments about it, laughing and saying that he had been jealous of Keef. This has brought the police in to question Keef on this, as JoJo had had words with Keef recently.
LEON BING: That kind of life?
SFCB: Yeah, that gang violence and stuff like that, and I kind of jokingly said on Twitter that it would have been more of a outrage if Interscope had NOT signed him. Soon after that became news that Lil Jo Jo had been killed, Chief Keef tweeted out mocking comments about it, laughing and saying that he had been jealous of Keef. This has brought the police in to question Keef on this, as JoJo had had words with Keef recently.
You’ve written about this type of thing, this gang violence, and seem to be an
appropriate person to ask about this.
What can be done about this situation of gang violence, whether it’s in
L.A., New York or Chicago, that can stop these kids, like you said, from killing other kids?
LEON BING: Other kids like them!
SFCB: Yeah.
LEON
BING: That's the question I'm asked -- That and weren't you afraid, are
the two questions I get asked most, and still get asked. And I don't
have an answer. Aside from the "Were you Afraid?" question and that was
no. As to what can be done about it, all I can say is get these
neighborhoods which are so isolated from the rest of society, bring them
much more close to society. Get some Pop Warner football in there.
Get some Little League. I mean, some of the neighborhoods have it and
some don't.
Nothing can be done about parents who work three jobs, these are latch key kids in many cases. Not in all, every family is different. And my closest friend, who was married to the guy on the cover of my book, Monster Kody -- she's divorced now, and has remarried, grew up in that neighborhood and she never went near the gangs. She and Kody were sweethearts from the time they were 15 and 14, but finally she couldn't take any more. And so they divorced after three kids, and now she's happily remarried as of last week and I'm just so excited and thrilled. And she lives in another state.
But you get these guys and they become these bullshark gang members, and everything else stops in their life except for that. They go out on what are called missions, there's a passion that builds against their worst enemies, and when you sit someone down and ask, "What is this death feud between you and another set?" of Crips or Bloods, and they say, some of them will sit back and say 'well, it all started in' -- and I wrote it in 'Do or Die', -- the feud between the Rolling 60's and the Eight Tray Gangsters, started with a little leather jacket in a school yard.
And it staggers the imagination, that years later, now generations later, they're still killing each other over it without even a dim memory of why it all started.
SFCB: Yeah, it's all they've known so it's all they do. It's essentially genocide.
LEON BING: Yes, that's rather a good word -- I mean.. It's NOT, but it is, I mean there's a self loathing I suppose, but I don't want to get psychiatric about it. But some of the most feared kids were so sweet when you got them alone. When you got them away, there was no chest thumping, I mean there was no, no one did a 'Muhammad Ali in his prime', you know? No one said "I am the greatest!"
And I've seen people shrink in horror when I would bring three, four maybe five gang members into a restaurant with me and they were just horrified. And I wanted to look at them and say "look at their manners, you should have such good manners." And I never met a gang member who didn't have the most perfect table manners. Their mothers really.... you know?
SFCB: Yeah.
LEON BING: And these are really fastidious guys in so many ways. But, there is that screed of inherited hatred for the kids in the next block.
SFCB: Yeah.
 |
| LEON BING & GANG MEMBERS |
Nothing can be done about parents who work three jobs, these are latch key kids in many cases. Not in all, every family is different. And my closest friend, who was married to the guy on the cover of my book, Monster Kody -- she's divorced now, and has remarried, grew up in that neighborhood and she never went near the gangs. She and Kody were sweethearts from the time they were 15 and 14, but finally she couldn't take any more. And so they divorced after three kids, and now she's happily remarried as of last week and I'm just so excited and thrilled. And she lives in another state.
But you get these guys and they become these bullshark gang members, and everything else stops in their life except for that. They go out on what are called missions, there's a passion that builds against their worst enemies, and when you sit someone down and ask, "What is this death feud between you and another set?" of Crips or Bloods, and they say, some of them will sit back and say 'well, it all started in' -- and I wrote it in 'Do or Die', -- the feud between the Rolling 60's and the Eight Tray Gangsters, started with a little leather jacket in a school yard.
And it staggers the imagination, that years later, now generations later, they're still killing each other over it without even a dim memory of why it all started.
SFCB: Yeah, it's all they've known so it's all they do. It's essentially genocide.
LEON BING: Yes, that's rather a good word -- I mean.. It's NOT, but it is, I mean there's a self loathing I suppose, but I don't want to get psychiatric about it. But some of the most feared kids were so sweet when you got them alone. When you got them away, there was no chest thumping, I mean there was no, no one did a 'Muhammad Ali in his prime', you know? No one said "I am the greatest!"
And I've seen people shrink in horror when I would bring three, four maybe five gang members into a restaurant with me and they were just horrified. And I wanted to look at them and say "look at their manners, you should have such good manners." And I never met a gang member who didn't have the most perfect table manners. Their mothers really.... you know?
SFCB: Yeah.
LEON BING: And these are really fastidious guys in so many ways. But, there is that screed of inherited hatred for the kids in the next block.
SFCB: The issue of
gun violence has also been in the news in recent years after a spate of
shootings in Tucson Arizona, where congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head at a public appearance, and in Aurora Colorado where a man walked intoa movie theater showing The Dark Knight Rises and opened fire. Both instances featured people who had guns
that were either formerly banned under the automatic assault rifle ban, or were
using modified clips that would allow them to fire much more than a typical
gun. There was also the shooting at the Sikh temple as well by a man who thought he was killing Muslims.
LEON BING: Well now you're talking about the gun lobby.
SFCB: Yeah.
LEON BING: And the people who buy these guns, not only can kill out of their own, you know, pathology, but people go hunting with these guns. What sportsmen! To kill a deer with an Uzi. That's really a sportsman.
SFCB: That reminds me of that scene from Aaron Sorkin's series "Sports Night" in which one of the characters who was a producer, had to do a segment about hunting, and talked about the serious firepower that they were taking along. He said the guy had a gun with a "16" microgrooved barrel with 30/30 mags, side scope mount, wire cutter sheath, quick release bolts, mag catches and a three pound trigger." and deduced that they must be going after some pretty dangerous duck.
LEON BING: (laughs) yeah. You know I laugh, but I cringe. I cringe, as an incredible advocate for animals. Well, I'm not incredible, animals are. And I'm very passionate about it. I mean, my dogs have always been rescued, I have my Bobbi here, and he was rescued from a shelter in a bad part of town. I have two more at home, I wasn't even looking for a dog, I was rescuing the dogs and I saw him. I found a rescue dog off the street and brought him home too. And I don't dare go near a shelter.
And when I hear about these jerks who are getting these guns which are for all intents and purposes, elephant guns, and I can't even think about that either, hurting an elephant. I mean, you can stop a tank with these guns! And they're using them on people and animals? I'd like to use it on them.
SFCB: And whenever something like that happens, there’s usually a furious fight for a few weeks.
LEON BING: A few days, a few weeks, and then it peters out.
SFCB: Right, about gun regulations, and usually at the time there's this huge pushback on this saying "No No No! It's too early. It's too soon to talk about this"
LEON BING: When is it time??
SFCB: Exactly. They want to get farther away from the incident, because they know the farther away it gets, the more time passes, the less people seem to be interested in it. Usually you have to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak, when it's really in the consciousness.
LEON BING: Well it's the NRA and the gun lobby, and nobody wants to touch it. It's far too hot of a potato,
LEON BING: Well now you're talking about the gun lobby.
SFCB: Yeah.
LEON BING: And the people who buy these guns, not only can kill out of their own, you know, pathology, but people go hunting with these guns. What sportsmen! To kill a deer with an Uzi. That's really a sportsman.
SFCB: That reminds me of that scene from Aaron Sorkin's series "Sports Night" in which one of the characters who was a producer, had to do a segment about hunting, and talked about the serious firepower that they were taking along. He said the guy had a gun with a "16" microgrooved barrel with 30/30 mags, side scope mount, wire cutter sheath, quick release bolts, mag catches and a three pound trigger." and deduced that they must be going after some pretty dangerous duck.
LEON BING: (laughs) yeah. You know I laugh, but I cringe. I cringe, as an incredible advocate for animals. Well, I'm not incredible, animals are. And I'm very passionate about it. I mean, my dogs have always been rescued, I have my Bobbi here, and he was rescued from a shelter in a bad part of town. I have two more at home, I wasn't even looking for a dog, I was rescuing the dogs and I saw him. I found a rescue dog off the street and brought him home too. And I don't dare go near a shelter.
And when I hear about these jerks who are getting these guns which are for all intents and purposes, elephant guns, and I can't even think about that either, hurting an elephant. I mean, you can stop a tank with these guns! And they're using them on people and animals? I'd like to use it on them.
SFCB: And whenever something like that happens, there’s usually a furious fight for a few weeks.
LEON BING: A few days, a few weeks, and then it peters out.
SFCB: Right, about gun regulations, and usually at the time there's this huge pushback on this saying "No No No! It's too early. It's too soon to talk about this"
LEON BING: When is it time??
SFCB: Exactly. They want to get farther away from the incident, because they know the farther away it gets, the more time passes, the less people seem to be interested in it. Usually you have to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak, when it's really in the consciousness.
LEON BING: Well it's the NRA and the gun lobby, and nobody wants to touch it. It's far too hot of a potato,
SFCB: Yeah.
LEON BING: And votes are concerned, and money is concerned, and so it just keeps on going.
SFCB: And it's almost like politicians are so afraid of the gun lobby, where -- just look at Wayne LaPierre, who is the head of the NRA. And he serves the gun companies, not the people (in the NRA), but they continue to say that President Obama is going to take away your guns, even though he's only done two things which gives you more gun rights. It is now legal to carry handguns in national parks, and you can carry guns on Amtrak trains. And when you point that out to him, he's like "yeah, yeah yeah, this is a trick. He's luring you into a false sense of security, so that when he's re-elected, THAT'S when he's coming for your guns."
LEON BING: Well, look. Republicans made it -- and quite publicly as you know, that "it's our job to make sure Barack Obama is a one term President".
SFCB: Yeah, Mitch McConnell.
LEON BING: The Cockatoo.
SFCB: (laughs) Well he looks like the Turtle that you have to draw to get into art school.
LEON BING: And votes are concerned, and money is concerned, and so it just keeps on going.
SFCB: And it's almost like politicians are so afraid of the gun lobby, where -- just look at Wayne LaPierre, who is the head of the NRA. And he serves the gun companies, not the people (in the NRA), but they continue to say that President Obama is going to take away your guns, even though he's only done two things which gives you more gun rights. It is now legal to carry handguns in national parks, and you can carry guns on Amtrak trains. And when you point that out to him, he's like "yeah, yeah yeah, this is a trick. He's luring you into a false sense of security, so that when he's re-elected, THAT'S when he's coming for your guns."
 |
| Ms. Bing At Home |
LEON BING: Well, look. Republicans made it -- and quite publicly as you know, that "it's our job to make sure Barack Obama is a one term President".
SFCB: Yeah, Mitch McConnell.
LEON BING: The Cockatoo.
SFCB: (laughs) Well he looks like the Turtle that you have to draw to get into art school.
LEON BING: (laughs)
SFCB: Your book “Do
or Die” had been talked about being made into a movie, but there hadn’t been
much movement on it in several years.
Have you heard anything else about that, or has it essentially been sent
to languish away in what is known as “Development Hell”? And what are your thoughts on it being made
into a film?
LEON
BING: Oh I really don't think it will be. I think it's a very difficult
movie to make, because there's so many stories. I have, in the last
few months, interviewed an ex gang member, who turned his life around,
and in an astonishing way. And there's a movie there. I won't go into
it, with details, but it is one of the most dramatic interviews , not in
terms of loud and yelling, but jaw dropping interviews. It went on
from around ten in the morning to midnight. And Gareth went with me,
my boyfriend, and it was just astonishing.
I don't think I've ever had an interview that fascinating, and it is born out by the government. So THAT's a movie. I do recall going to Chicago for Playboy once, they asked me if I would interview gang members in Chicago. I didn't know any gang members in Chicago. But the sister of a friend of mine, was going out with the Public Defender. And he said, I'll get her a couple gang members. They were Latino. I believe they were Latin Kings, but I'm not sure, it's been a number of years ago.
We met, on the South Side, and I truly think they talked to me because -- we went to an Italian restaurant, a public defender, and my friend Howard Rosenberg who was a brilliant photographer, came with me and took pictures, and -- which didn't show their faces, and he and the public defender all ordered calamari, and I don't eat tentacles. So I ordered a slice, as did the two gang members. and somehow they all liked that I ordered a slice. (laughs).
Then we went to an abandoned church. talk about picturesque. And we were there til five in the morning, with one of the guys going out for more pizza. And it was just an extraordinary interview.
I also interviewed some of the homegirls for Rolling Stone, and they were very interesting. It was a really good day, and we had a good time. And one finds, that the homegirls can be more dangerous than the homeboys (laughing). And yet be the most wonderful mothers. There's so many dichotomies.
I don't think I've ever had an interview that fascinating, and it is born out by the government. So THAT's a movie. I do recall going to Chicago for Playboy once, they asked me if I would interview gang members in Chicago. I didn't know any gang members in Chicago. But the sister of a friend of mine, was going out with the Public Defender. And he said, I'll get her a couple gang members. They were Latino. I believe they were Latin Kings, but I'm not sure, it's been a number of years ago.
We met, on the South Side, and I truly think they talked to me because -- we went to an Italian restaurant, a public defender, and my friend Howard Rosenberg who was a brilliant photographer, came with me and took pictures, and -- which didn't show their faces, and he and the public defender all ordered calamari, and I don't eat tentacles. So I ordered a slice, as did the two gang members. and somehow they all liked that I ordered a slice. (laughs).
Then we went to an abandoned church. talk about picturesque. And we were there til five in the morning, with one of the guys going out for more pizza. And it was just an extraordinary interview.
I also interviewed some of the homegirls for Rolling Stone, and they were very interesting. It was a really good day, and we had a good time. And one finds, that the homegirls can be more dangerous than the homeboys (laughing). And yet be the most wonderful mothers. There's so many dichotomies.
SFCB: Your second book, Smoked, was another shocking tale of youth violence. I thought this was an intriguing situation because
here you have these acts of brutality, and yet it’s almost as if we’ll never
truly know what caused this. There are
those who said that Dave was a “bad seed” and that the kids were both bullies,
but it kind of makes you wonder what was the original thing that made them that
way, that put them on that path. Were
you ever able to get a handle on what did this, or is it just a case of “born
bad”, so to speak?
Dave was in that kind of blonde surfer look, you know. And I think it was just, like I said earlier, a kind of craven act. And by that, I want to make clear, I condone in no way any kind of gang killing. drive bys, street, anything I don't condone it. I barely understand it, but I certainly don't condone it. But these murders in scope seemed ... horrified me, in another way.
Because these were not perceived as enemies but friends, girlfriends. Not Vinnie's...Heather was another boy's girlfriend who I interviewed at length. I can't remember what name I called him, not his real name. But they had mohawks and she carved the anarchy A into his arm on their first date. And she and Vinnie just...it was just the kind of thing where after doing all those quarters, whatever animosity was there, came out. She was feisty anyway, she was small and feisty. Very pretty, and perhaps Vinnie saw her as something he could never achieve.
And it began with that argument, when others went to get more beer, and by the time they got back ...
So I really cannot give you a succinct answer, or a pat answer about the why. It's one of those hideous events for which you can only stare in horror. There is no answer, or at least none that I can think of.
SFCB: One thing that that struck me in reading about the
case online, was a NY Times article in which some of the classmates a week or so later were just kind of apathetic about the whole thing. Their attitudes were essentially “yeah, it
happened, that’s over now.” And it reminded me of when I was in high school and
one of the kids in my class had killed himself, and there was this immediate
shock but for a lot of kids, it just went away quickly.
I remember there being a service off grounds,
and many people attended that, and yet a
few days later everyone just sort of acted like it never happened, and I was
dumbfounded by that. How do you NOT
acknowledge that someone killed themself? That some kids killed their
girlfriends with shotguns? I couldn’t understand
that.
Is that, you think, just a form of shock and denial, or
perhaps a more pragmatic approach of realizing you can’t do anything about it
now and deciding not to dwell on it?
LEON BING: I don't know, I think you might be applying adult logic to teenagers who are in many cases are barely out of childhood, or early into double digit ages, and I think there is a kind of built in denial when you are a kid. You know, for example, when you're a kid you see cartoons and the Wile E Coyote gets smashed flat with a piano, or a safe falls out of the sky and yet he jumps up again and is alive a minute later. Or he falls off a mile high cliff and survives.
So, you know, it's as though "yeah they're dead, but well, maybe they'll come back." And I don't think that's a well articulated thought on this but I think there's a kind of denial of death. When you're that young death seems an impossiblity. And I read a piece today, about a young girl who was so bullied and traumatized because her reputation for having "put on a show"
SFCB: Was she the one who was in the viral anti-bullying video?
LEON BING: Yeah. She did it with flash cards.
SFCB: Yeah. I saw the headline for it this morning, and hadn't had a chance to read it,
LEON BING: It's horrifying. And her reputation followed her from school to school to school, and finally a throwdown happened at a school where a boy who she had had sex with, when his girlfriend was on vacation, and a whole group of kids had gotten around her and just urged the girlfriend to punch her out, and that's what happened.
And then the girl started cutting on herself, the girl with the flashcards -- her name was Amanda. And finally she killed herself. First she cut on herself, and then she killed herself. And I don't know, well very often you'll see a picture on the news or on your computer or you'll read about it in the paper and it'll show a picture of kids who's classmate, whether they knew the classmate or not, sometimes they do sometimes they don't. Sometimes the school is big, I mean that's the way it goes.
And all of them are in groups sobbing hysterically. And it seems that all the emotions are higher pitched at that age. And, the girl who killed herself, that is a tragedy. She was painted into a corner and had nowhere to go, in her mind. I mean did she have somewhere to go, a therapist? Who knows, you know?
And in the case of Smoked, I think there was this period of mourning and hysteria for awhile. I talked to many of the kids right after it happened. Because at first this was assigned to me as a piece for Rolling Stone, which then my editor at Harper Collins said "no, no, no. I want this as a book." So I did it as a book.
When I talked to these kids, they were stunned, they were shocked, but nobody was sobbing, we just sat in a coffee shop and talked. I don't think they were numbed and in grief, I think they were shocked but not in shock.
Later Harper Collins asked if I would add another chapter to the paperback. I said I would try, I'd look around and see if I could something that would make any sense, and wouldn't just be a rehash of what I'd already written.
And I went, I knew where Vinnie had lived. He lived -- the chapter, was not added by the way, but I'll tell you what it is. He lived upstairs with his mother and perhaps his sister, above a body shop. So all day, one would hear that awful terrible grind of metal on metal. And there was his apartment above there. So I went to the body shop, and went to the owner and said -- the mother had already moved, it was just an empty place by that time. I asked if I could take a look, and explained that I was an author, and all that, and he said sure, it's open, go on up.
And I went up the stairs to an apartment where the kitchen clearly had not been cleaned in years, you know, just coated in grease. Cobwebs and... we won't even discuss the bathroom. And Vinnie's room, there was a lot of black paint on the walls, and one wall was white and it had an drawing of an enormous penis spurting and, there were some toys lying around discarded. These kids were barely out of childhood, and a bag of marbles, and that was it. No books, no magazines, nothing. Just that ugly drawing and splash of black on the wall and a filthy apartment.
So I talked to the owner of the body shop, and I said "so tell me, did you know anything about this kid? I mean of course, you know what happened."
And he said "sure", and he said, "the funny thing is that Vinnie was always threatening he was gonna hurt this one, hurt that one, he was gonna murder this guy he was going to knock this guy's head off. " and he said "Nah. He'll kill a girl". And that's how it ended.
And I think Harper Collins thought it was just too raw. but they wanted a chapter and I gave it to them. But that's about as much as I can tell you about Smoked. I mean those pictures ... I went everyday of the trial. My daughter went with me and we both took copious amounts of notes, so not a word would be missed. And I remember when the pictures were shown it was horrific. I mean, Heather's brains were shot out of her head. It was for the most part intact. It was terrible.
And it, you know, it was the first homicide trial, it was the first trial I had ever attended. ... To see these defendants come in every day with suits supplied by their attorneys with shorter haircuts. And to always get a call every morning from Dave before court. So I got as much of his side of the story, or as he told it.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2 OF THE INTERVIEW AS LEON BING & I DISCUSS HER BOOKS "A WRONGFUL DEATH" AND SWANS & PISTOLS", THE FOR PROFIT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, THE ADVENT OF DIGITAL MEDIA, AND MORE
LEON BING: I don't know, I think you might be applying adult logic to teenagers who are in many cases are barely out of childhood, or early into double digit ages, and I think there is a kind of built in denial when you are a kid. You know, for example, when you're a kid you see cartoons and the Wile E Coyote gets smashed flat with a piano, or a safe falls out of the sky and yet he jumps up again and is alive a minute later. Or he falls off a mile high cliff and survives.
So, you know, it's as though "yeah they're dead, but well, maybe they'll come back." And I don't think that's a well articulated thought on this but I think there's a kind of denial of death. When you're that young death seems an impossiblity. And I read a piece today, about a young girl who was so bullied and traumatized because her reputation for having "put on a show"
SFCB: Was she the one who was in the viral anti-bullying video?
LEON BING: Yeah. She did it with flash cards.
SFCB: Yeah. I saw the headline for it this morning, and hadn't had a chance to read it,
LEON BING: It's horrifying. And her reputation followed her from school to school to school, and finally a throwdown happened at a school where a boy who she had had sex with, when his girlfriend was on vacation, and a whole group of kids had gotten around her and just urged the girlfriend to punch her out, and that's what happened.
And then the girl started cutting on herself, the girl with the flashcards -- her name was Amanda. And finally she killed herself. First she cut on herself, and then she killed herself. And I don't know, well very often you'll see a picture on the news or on your computer or you'll read about it in the paper and it'll show a picture of kids who's classmate, whether they knew the classmate or not, sometimes they do sometimes they don't. Sometimes the school is big, I mean that's the way it goes.
And all of them are in groups sobbing hysterically. And it seems that all the emotions are higher pitched at that age. And, the girl who killed herself, that is a tragedy. She was painted into a corner and had nowhere to go, in her mind. I mean did she have somewhere to go, a therapist? Who knows, you know?
And in the case of Smoked, I think there was this period of mourning and hysteria for awhile. I talked to many of the kids right after it happened. Because at first this was assigned to me as a piece for Rolling Stone, which then my editor at Harper Collins said "no, no, no. I want this as a book." So I did it as a book.
When I talked to these kids, they were stunned, they were shocked, but nobody was sobbing, we just sat in a coffee shop and talked. I don't think they were numbed and in grief, I think they were shocked but not in shock.
Later Harper Collins asked if I would add another chapter to the paperback. I said I would try, I'd look around and see if I could something that would make any sense, and wouldn't just be a rehash of what I'd already written.
And I went, I knew where Vinnie had lived. He lived -- the chapter, was not added by the way, but I'll tell you what it is. He lived upstairs with his mother and perhaps his sister, above a body shop. So all day, one would hear that awful terrible grind of metal on metal. And there was his apartment above there. So I went to the body shop, and went to the owner and said -- the mother had already moved, it was just an empty place by that time. I asked if I could take a look, and explained that I was an author, and all that, and he said sure, it's open, go on up.
And I went up the stairs to an apartment where the kitchen clearly had not been cleaned in years, you know, just coated in grease. Cobwebs and... we won't even discuss the bathroom. And Vinnie's room, there was a lot of black paint on the walls, and one wall was white and it had an drawing of an enormous penis spurting and, there were some toys lying around discarded. These kids were barely out of childhood, and a bag of marbles, and that was it. No books, no magazines, nothing. Just that ugly drawing and splash of black on the wall and a filthy apartment.
So I talked to the owner of the body shop, and I said "so tell me, did you know anything about this kid? I mean of course, you know what happened."
And he said "sure", and he said, "the funny thing is that Vinnie was always threatening he was gonna hurt this one, hurt that one, he was gonna murder this guy he was going to knock this guy's head off. " and he said "Nah. He'll kill a girl". And that's how it ended.
And I think Harper Collins thought it was just too raw. but they wanted a chapter and I gave it to them. But that's about as much as I can tell you about Smoked. I mean those pictures ... I went everyday of the trial. My daughter went with me and we both took copious amounts of notes, so not a word would be missed. And I remember when the pictures were shown it was horrific. I mean, Heather's brains were shot out of her head. It was for the most part intact. It was terrible.
And it, you know, it was the first homicide trial, it was the first trial I had ever attended. ... To see these defendants come in every day with suits supplied by their attorneys with shorter haircuts. And to always get a call every morning from Dave before court. So I got as much of his side of the story, or as he told it.
CLICK HERE FOR PART 2 OF THE INTERVIEW AS LEON BING & I DISCUSS HER BOOKS "A WRONGFUL DEATH" AND SWANS & PISTOLS", THE FOR PROFIT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, THE ADVENT OF DIGITAL MEDIA, AND MORE
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